[darkpuppet]

guess I'll be walking downtown today for my gf's bday party...

as reported by citynews..

Quote:Toronto Wakes Up To TTC Strike
Ontario Premier promises to have legislature in session Sunday to deal with TTC union. Service was suspended as of midnight Friday.

[2001 ZTS]

I don't care what the union types have to say but it was LOW CLASS to do it at midnight and leaving so many stranded downtown. Friggin inexcusible and I have no respect left whatsoever. Thank god I only TTC once in a blue moon.

Free parking at Yonge & St. Clair FTW

[NikiterZTS]

call me selfish, but as long as i drive i don't care about them

[darkpuppet]

yeah, I walk most places.. I can walk from my place to downtown or uptown to sheppard in an hour -- bike to the beach in 30 minutes.. or drive everywhere else...

[OAC_Sparky]

2001 ZTS,Apr 26 2008, 01:24 PM Wrote:I don't care what the union types have to say but it was LOW CLASS to do it at midnight and leaving so many stranded downtown. Friggin inexcusible and I have no respect left whatsoever. Thank god I only TTC once in a blue moon.

Free parking at Yonge & St. Clair FTW
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You are a man, do you support men who rape and beat women? I mean, because you're a man and you support fellow men, does that mean that you carte blanche agree with everything every man does?

Of course not.

Just because there are Union workers here that believe in Union causes, it doesn't mean that we think everything a Union (not even the same Union) does is in the best interest of the Union. While I think that their intention was to give a wakeup call, in the long run it won't help their cause not giving due notice.

All you had to say "I don't think what they did was right" and leave the rest of us out of it.

But I will say this to the citizens of Toronto that take the TTC.

Pay your own way. Part of the $55,000 I paid in income tax last year finds its way to Provincial coffers to subsidize the Toronto Transit system. Only to hear people bitching about the cost. My transportation fuel costs went up 25%, fares should be put up accordingly.

[paolo]

This just in, it is a ZOO driving in the streets of Toronto this morning. Yes I would definately love to have the luxury of walking like the rest of you, but some of us have to commute from outside the city, that walk would take easily over 2-3 hours, no body in their right mind would want to do this on a day like today.

[2001 ZTS]

My point was, for one thing, being as it was a Friday night there were more than likely quite a few people who ended up in cars when they shouldn't have. Not that the pressence of a strike is a legitimate excuse for DD (there is NO legitimate excuse naturally) but people who are under the influence do stupid things and unexpected lack of TTC can be considered a contributing factor.

Enhancing a danger to the public is classless and rather shocking to me actually.
I hope no innocents were hurt or killed because of it.

I've been in a unionized enviroment (including CAW of all things) and currently work with the CAW on a daily basis*, we actually get along quite well and I doubt they would pull a stunt like the ATU did. Not bashing all unions, I see/agree with their purpose but dislike the blind/"union can do no wrong" support that some tend to have and not saying you're one of them.

Lets be honest, they did the wrong thing and they did much to hurt their own cause in my opinion. Foolish, they should have finished the shift, helped get everyone home safe and start the strike at 0600 when the subway normally opens in the morning.

*I've moved from "Ops" at work into HR recently

[darkpuppet]

OAC Sparky has a point.

When did the TTC become such an unviable business that they need support from the province. I mean, I think a portion of the gas tax should go over to it, but the TTC used to actually be a profitable business. what's the excuse for that changing?

[2001 ZTS]

darkpuppet,Apr 26 2008, 03:34 PM Wrote:OAC Sparky has a point.

When did the TTC become such an unviable business that they need support from the province.  I mean, I think a portion of the gas tax should go over to it, but the TTC used to actually be a profitable business.  what's the excuse for that changing?
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If I were confrontational I would say labour costs, good thing I am not :lol:

As an aside and for the "did you know file": the city of Toronto is the largest employer in the country. There are more city employees than their are people in the Armed Forces, by tens of thousands. I believe there are actually 200,000 on the city payroll.

The current Mayor is a tool for one thing. The city is just not being run the right way and spending way to much appeasing the hippies and whiners.

[Canadian ST]

NikiterZTS,Apr 26 2008, 02:09 PM Wrote:call me selfish, but as long as i drive i don't care about them
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Yah Im in the same boat, I really don't care them going on strike.

[OAC_Sparky]

2001 ZTS,Apr 26 2008, 04:46 PM Wrote:If I were confrontational I would say labour costs, good thing I am not  :lol: [right][snapback]263002[/snapback][/right]

Labour costs are also a reflection of the cost of living in Toronto.

DO you believe that the only people that should be allowed to own a house in Toronto are stock brokers, doctors and lawyers?

An average modest house in TO would be about $300G. Can't really afford that on $10 an hour.

The real reasons that the TTC isn't self supporting --

1 ) The fares haven't kept pace with the change in the cost of living. Back in 1986, I was stationed at the Canadian Forces Command and Staff College at Yonge Blvd and Wilson, and lived in barracks at the Downsview base, the cost of an adult monthly Metropass was $85 a month. Today, 22 years later, that same Metropass is -- what? Yeah, $109 a month. So in 22 years the pass has increased by 28%. Now, I know for a fact that (because the child support I pay for my 2 oldest kids increases directly proportional to the cost of living) that the cost of living has increased 29% since 1995 alone. (So figure it out -- 9 years of unadjusted cost of living increases).

2 ) Fuel prices are up even more proportionately as part of the cost of living.

http://cmte.parl.gc.ca/Content/HOC/committ.../instrp05-e.pdf

Quote:The average price of regular gasoline in Canada in 1986 — when the oil and gas. industry was deregulated in Canada — was approximately 48¢ per litre ...

So, ignoring the recent pas price spike to $1.24 a litre, even at $.99 a litre that's a 100% rise in fuel cost.

3 ) The increase in the cost of equipment and parts. (Vehicles have at least doubled in price)

4 ) The increase in the size of service coverage in 20 years of urban growth, and a new subway line.

5 ) Yes, increased labour costs, but since 1986 minimum wage has also increased by more than 42%. The recent wage increases that TTC workers are not much above the annual inflation rate.

If the TTC wanted to be self-sustaining, the monthly fare should be somewhere around $200 a month. Which, considering the price of a car, insurance, gas, parking is still a bargain.

[j3rt]

I have trouble sympathizing with them asking for more funding when I've seen first hand stores of equipment purchased but never to be installed. It was like looking into a dragons lair filled to ceiling with treasures. All that gear bought and paid for and never installed for one reason or another. I've been involved with the fiasco of trying to make the buses safer for drivers and passengers only to have the one of the other unions decide it was could be used to persecute a driver. Then delay, sabotage and outright damage equipment because they didn't get there way 100%.

I'm tired about hearing about the TTC. It sure doesn't make me want to move back, well it's just one of the reasons I don't want to move back to Toronto.

[NefCanuck]

The way the ATU handled this gives the province all the ammo they need to declare them an essential service.

I mean c'mon a strike with effectively zero notice, stranding people who had every reason to think that the deal would pass based on what union leadership had been saying?

What does this say about the union leaders disconnect from their members?

Still, it boggles my brain that the drivers turned down a contract that had no concessions and 3% increases for each of the three years of the contract & a clause that guaranteed they would be the highest paid drivers in the GTA :blink:

Only good thing about this it proves to the mewling sheep that support him, that Miller can give away the store and still get s&^t on by his union buddies :P

NefCanuck

[mo_focus]

Maint team is going to be out sourced, this is the reason why those guys are so pissed and they went on stirke ;)

[2001 ZTS]

OAC_Sparky,Apr 26 2008, 07:23 PM Wrote:An average modest house in TO would be about $300G. Can't really afford that on $10 an hour.


If the TTC wanted to be self-sustaining, the monthly fare should be somewhere around $200 a month. Which, considering the price of a car, insurance, gas, parking is still a bargain.
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You're low ballin', I am told my modest bungalow is $600G and I am out in the east end, darkpuppet, naz and Sangria *cough* have seen it and modest is the word. Still, from a G8 perspective real estate in TO in particular and Canada as a whole is still undervalued despite it all.

I totally agree with your statement about fares being unrealistically low. What has happened is that they are being maintained artificially low in an attempt to attract people like me out of cars. It ain't working like much else about the system. The only time I take the TTC is when I am too bombed to drive, my commute is 1/2 hour shorter by car than by transit, 15 min as opposed to 45 and including gas probably cheaper than the TTC month by month since the cars are payed for, I get free parking and my distance travelled is <5km.

[j3rt]

mo_focus,Apr 27 2008, 02:49 AM Wrote:Maint team is going to be out sourced, this is the reason why those guys are so pissed and they went on stirke ;)
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Yes, I'd heard the maintenance on the hybrid buses is currently down by a non-union shop (ie they are still under warranty from the manufacturer). Therefore the purchase of more hybrids has been delayed internally until a deal is in place to protect the current maintenance personal from layoffs.

[NefCanuck]

j3rt,Apr 27 2008, 07:40 AM Wrote:

mo_focus,Apr 27 2008, 02:49 AM Wrote:Maint team is going to be out sourced, this is the reason why those guys are so pissed and they went on stirke ;)
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Yes, I'd heard the maintenance on the hybrid buses is currently down by a non-union shop (ie they are still under warranty from the manufacturer). Therefore the purchase of more hybrids has been delayed internally until a deal is in place to protect the current maintenance personal from layoffs.
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Well then maybe the maintenance team @ the TTC should start cracking the books to get competent to fix the hybrids, rather than bitch considering the damn things are, by what you're saying, still under manufacturers warranty. The fact that the buses are still warrantied gives them the chance to get competent for after warranty work...

If the workers aren't going to learn how to fix what's put in front of them, why the hell should they be kept around? :rolleyes:

NefCanuck

[OAC_Sparky]

NefCanuck,Apr 27 2008, 10:46 PM Wrote:Well then maybe the maintenance team @ the TTC should start cracking the books to get competent to fix the hybrids, rather than bitch considering the damn things are, by what you're saying, still under manufacturers warranty.  The fact that the buses are still warrantied gives them the chance to get competent for after warranty work...

If the workers aren't going to learn how to fix what's put in front of them, why the hell should they be kept around? :rolleyes:
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Quote:Yes, I'd heard the maintenance on the hybrid buses is currently down by a non-union shop (ie they are still under warranty from the manufacturer). Therefore the purchase of more hybrids has been delayed internally until a deal is in place to protect the current maintenance personal from layoffs.

It has nothing to do with skill level, Dan. It has to do with the warranty that comes part and parcel with the equipment purchase. The problem is when the warranty ends, they will need someone to fix the equipment. I'm pretty certain that the maintenance staff is as competent as any to maintain a hybrid bus -- there is no voodoo magic involved -- it's just another application of some of the same mechanical principles. Does a regular bus have a braking system? Charging system? Engine? Of course. So does a hybrid. An electric motor isn't rocket science. Just a little different.

Ford does the same thing (or tries to), they buy tooling from a contractor, the work is warrantied, but the support in some ways is poor because the vendor does not have a vested interest in the long-term viability of the equipment. Worn-out equipment means Ford will have to buy new from them again. We have contractors doing work on weekends; Monday comes and the contractors all bug out and we're the ones who have to fix the mess they leave behind.

I have yet to see an instance where contracting out work has worked out for the better; even the money you seem to save on paper evaporates when you consider downtime and warranty costs due to slipping quality control and issues that the subcontractors fail to address that used to be dealt with at the plant level.

[oldeguy]

As a member of a public service union, that has been on strike, two too many times, I can understand the viewpoint of the Maintenance workers for the TTC. Once an employer sees that they can save money using outside workers, at least on paper, they jump at the opportunity. However, the use of "outside workers" has it's pitfalls, from poor workmanship to constant callbacks, which may or maynot be at an additional charge to the employer. With these new buses being under warranty, I can see why the TTC is having them repaired by the manufacturer. But, it should have been part of the purchase contract that the manufacturer train the TTC workers in the new technology within the buses.

The only bad move that the union did in walking out was not giving more notice to the "customers" of their walkout. Mind you, I think giving 48 hours notice, from a Union standpoint is not a good move. I've heard it was the management that closed down the system at midnight, and also that the union thought it would be safer for it's members to not give notice.

Irregardless, the union had every right to reject the offer, and to walkout.

[darkpuppet]

oldeguy,Apr 28 2008, 08:05 AM Wrote:As a member of a public service union, that has been on strike, two too many times, I can understand the viewpoint of the Maintenance workers for the TTC. Once an employer sees that they can save money using outside workers, at least on paper, they jump at the opportunity. However, the use of "outside workers" has it's pitfalls, from poor workmanship to constant callbacks, which may or maynot be at an additional charge to the employer. With these new buses being under warranty, I can see why the TTC is having them repaired by the manufacturer. But, it should have been part of the purchase contract that the manufacturer train the TTC workers in the new technology within the buses.

here's the thing I don't get... If this is indeed the case, that the workmanship is lower, and the overall cost higher -- then why couldn't the union write it up and present the business case back to the TTC board?

I'm sort of two minds on this.

On the one hand, outsourcing does suck for those who's jobs are being outsourced. However, on the other hand, a lot of outsourced jobs aren't necessarily jobs lost. It's just that people don't want to leave their unionized jobs or lose their seniority. It's not like the outsourcing company has enough employees to replace every TTC worker.

There are times when I welcome outsourcing. It frees me up to do more exciting things and to move up the ladder, and when it fails, it's good job security... even if frustrating at times.

Quote: The only bad move that the union did in walking out was not giving more notice to the "customers" of their walkout. Mind you, I think giving 48 hours notice, from a Union standpoint is not a good move.  I've heard it was the management that closed down the system at midnight, and also that the union thought it would be safer for it's members to not give notice.

Irregardless, the union had every right to reject the offer, and to walkout.
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After leaving a downtown core filled with drunks who now had to walk or drive home on Friday, or adversely affecting students, the union bought no favour with it's 'customer', and put a lot of people at risk (read women and children). That action alone undoes all the years of PR the TTC put in to give them an image of a TTC that cares about it's ridership.

But on the other hand, it was almost sort of a smart move. You do it right at the beginning of a weekend to force the government to put legislation back in before Monday. The TTC may have in fact done us all a big favour.

Regardless, striking for job security doesn't work anymore... the last 2 major strikes I witnessed (OPSEU and Safeway) resulted in more lost jobs after the strike than what they would have had otherwise. Companies are no longer willing to take the financial hit to please unreasonable employment demands -- union or not.