FocusCanada Forums

tdot-zx3,Jun 17 2004, 06:05 PM Wrote:Shmee your wrong .. there was more then 1 throttle body design.

no there was one design but parts on it have been revised.
there is a difference.

Blackzx3,Jun 18 2004, 02:26 AM Wrote:You compare focus central to ss autochrome. ss autochrome is an ebay company that is putting out the cheapest quality parts on the market. The welds look like children did them, the pipes are not cut to equal length at the collector, there is visible weld stick still in the welds inside the collector and outside on the flanges. I showed the pictures of the headers to a lot of people dan probably still remembers the "quality". If you are trying to compare the quality of FC to ss autochrome, then I am glad I still don't have any fc products on my car.
There are two ways for a company to do business pump out the product as fast as possible to make as much money as possible, or to take the time and invest into the product and make sure it is right the first time, and by doing that they will obtain a high level of customer satisfaction and loyalty.

no i'm not comparing FC to SS Autochrome
if you go back and read what i posted
SS AutoChrome ripped off the FC header.
they also ripped off the 1st gen FC header which is the one with the weld issues

of course SS Autochrome stuff sucks, why the hell do you think it's so damn cheap?
do you seriously think that if it was a quality part it would sell for $150?

just so you know, a large protion of Steeda Stuff is just rebadged FC stuff so if you have Steeda parts you better think twice about knocking FC stuff because there is a good chance it's already in your car!

just a heads up! ;)



no there are 3 ways...
pump s**t out as fast as possible and make as much money as fast as possible.
take the time and do it right once.
or
like how the world works; supply and demand.

FC backs up everything it makes/sells. you have a problem with it, call them up and they will take care of you. moan and bitch about it on the net before talking with them and you are not going to get the same service you would have if you called them first.... the FJ issues.
try it and see for yourself....
Slap someone in the face and then ask them for a favor.

i don't know about you but a header with questionable welds or a header that hits on driveways and crushes the runners is not much different? where is the "propper engineering" there?

I think you are missing some of the point here Schmee.
I have never had a FC part on the car, and I am one of the few who is willing to spend a little extra to get the best.
But the main point two of these guys make, is that there parts were all thrown in a box and shipped to them without a care in the world. I might react the same way, by not contacting the company. You know you would get the typical answer of "Sorry bout that" or "it won't happen next time", but where does that leave you?
Still a disgruntled customer, who believes that if they put so little care into packaging the product, maybe they put the same care into making the product.
I personally looked into buying a race header for the Focus, and have decided to wait for the new header coming out of Marcy motorsport. I asked about the FC header and was told to stay away from their goods as they have had problems in the past.
I guess in the end your new job is going to be a tough sell for us, but I wish you the best in trying to get us to place FC parts on the car. Not to be a smartass, but maybe donating or selling your parts at cost to an eager individual and proving yourself and FC are interested in our business might be a step forward. We've all got money to burn on our little Foci, so stepping up to the plate and proving us wrong goes a long way in my book.

good thread, keep it coming!

like i said, i am the Canadian Distributor and will be handling all of the Canadian warrenty issues. even if you didn't buy the part from me i'll still warrenty it if the part is deffective.
why do you think i would do this?
to lose money because the parts really are crap??

come on guys.

meford4u,Jun 18 2004, 02:41 AM Wrote:I think you are missing some of the point here Schmee.
I have never had a FC part on the car, and I am one of the few who is willing to spend a little extra to get the best.
But the main point two of these guys make, is that there parts were all thrown in a box and shipped to them without a care in the world. I might react the same way, by not contacting the company. You know you would get the typical answer of "Sorry bout that" or "it won't happen next time", but where does that leave you?
Still a disgruntled customer, who believes that if they put so little care into packaging the product, maybe they put the same care into making the product.
I personally looked into buying a race header for the Focus, and have decided to wait for the new header coming out of Marcy motorsport. I asked about the FC header and was told to stay away from their goods as they have had problems in the past.
I guess in the end your new job is going to be a tough sell for us, but I wish you the best in trying to get us to place FC parts on the car. Not to be a smartass, but maybe donating or selling your parts at cost to an eager individual and proving yourself and FC are interested in our business might be a step forward. We've all got money to burn on our little Foci, so stepping up to the plate and proving us wrong goes a long way in my book.

did those people who had their parts thrown into the box without packing call up FC and talk to them about it?
how can you say what any company would give as a responce?
like in any business there is always going to be one lazy s**t at the job, i'm sure there is one where you work that fucks up and makes everyone look bad at times.
what about if the company says "oh s**t? really? I'm sorry, i'll send you out a set of A/C knobs for your troubles and will bring this issue up with the shippers!"

ever think about that?
why is it you automatically think about the negative?

if you do not bring up these issues then they will never get resolved.
it's that simple.
if it's a phone call or an email or a smoke signal, how can management fix a problem if they don't know it's going on?
FC recently just fired off all of it's old support staff because of lazy workmanship in the warehouse and shipping.

that sounds completely fair... someone told you FC parts HAD ISSUES IN THE PAST, so you wont buy from them now.
wow, that's like people saying the focus is a piece of s**t because it has had so many recalls. Or ford sucks because firestone tires on the explorer kept blowing out. :rolleyes:


you know what, i'll do you one better!
right now, i'm having a kick off sale, i've got everything from FC on sale at Jobber prices. that is the price that FC dealers(like steeda.ca) BUY the parts for before they mark them up to retail and sell to you.

if thabrat or Tdot give me the ok i'll post them here and you guys will have the chance to buy FC parts at never before seen prices.

believe me, i want your business!
like all of us, i have been screwed on getting parts from the states which is why i'm trying so hard to get you guys on the wagon with me.
i'm here to serve you.
no other company can do what i can for you.
Steeda.ca has great Customer service, and you guys love them for that, i'm not trying to steal business from Steeda.ca, i'm trying to kick you guys in the ass and realize that FC parts are worth buying which will inturn boost Steeda.ca's sales to you guys.
i have been very busy in the past few weeks setting up dealers in BC(including shops and dealerships), working east and am looking for new dealers all across Canada. i would love for Steeda.ca to come to me for FC parts along with any other company interested in the product line. i really do not want to deal with the retail side, i would rather leave that to local shops which is why i'm seaking dealers rather than selling direct.

however, i want you guys to get off this stupid FC bashing and am willing to sell to you guys directly via this sale.

Shmee,Jun 18 2004, 02:28 AM Wrote:

tdot-zx3,Jun 17 2004, 06: Wrote:Shmee your wrong .. there was more then 1 throttle body design.

no there was one design but parts on it have been revised.
there is a difference.

Same s**t ..
If theres revised parts..

Its a different throttle body.

Wow-e

right.
that makes sence.

my 2000 focus had a few recalls on it, they put in revised parts...
so according to your logic, it's a different car now?

i like how you think!

Did the revisions work differently?

Yes?

Then they are different.

Quote:my 2000 focus had a few recalls on it, they put in revised parts...
so according to your logic, it's a different car now?

The revised part was different it has nothing to do with the car. Putting in a 65mm tb doesnt make the focus a new car... Good logic! They replaced the part that didnt work properly with a different part! The part now worked better, but most importantly worked probably... And even though it was the same part, it worked different.. Therefore....

ITS DIFFERENT.

*claps*

Ive been on the phone them before too, when nazthug used to sell parts for them, and you had to be clear which one you wanted.... Since they had like 3 different ones that worked differently on there shelf....

I been around in this focus world just as long as you... :rolleyes:

Ps .. no you cant advertise on this site.

Unless you want to become a paying sponsor.

B)

Wow, I honestly didn't expect that type of response. Basically, you confirmed what I felt. They just *design* a part, not engineer it, and figure out how to make it at a cost that 90% of the people in this market will accept.

I agree, that's what most of the companies do.

But, you asked why we don't buy FC stuff... well, that's *my* reason, as well as a number of others.

You'll notice I don't have any parts from Steeda, FS, FC, etc. on my car. I really don't have that many mods at all. Just a few key ones. TCE, Pectel, Aerocharger, Quaife, Bilstein, Autopower, Autometer, Motec, Borla. Yeah, I'm in the minority.

I don't buy "Boutique" parts. You asked for my opinion, that's it.

I don't think it's fair to say that proper engineering on a part will increase it's cost however. Really, how much would it cost to have a quick look at the throttle cam on the TB, and make it into a snail instead of a half-moon? 10lbs of E70S2 filler rod costs $20, compared to $2 for some junk filler. How much would it cost to use a better filler rod? Say you use 1 lb per header, that's $2 extra.

How much have they spent on warranty repairs?

That's really my main point. I think the cost of NOT engineering parts is WAY higher than the cost of doing it right.

I think this is the difference between FC and FS. Sure, both make parts that are equally ineffective. The FS STB is pretty useless. But at least they made it to a high quality. They also managed their shipping department BEFORE it got a bad reputation. Not after.

FC seems to crank things out, and only respond AFTER there is a significant problem. That is what is causing their lack of reputation compared to other boutique shops. Just as you know with Fords, recalls are a PITA, customers don't like them. Nobody likes to go to the shop, nobody wants to have to take defective parts off and replace them.

Speaking of reputation... the hood thing... I can kind of understand their position. Mind you, I would never handle it the way they did... not when it was on a public forum.... But the way he handled it at the end, basically telling all his customers "blow me" "I don't need you"... that kind of attitude, he would have been better off to say *nothing*.

Being unresponsive is one thing. Being unresponsive and INSULTING your customers is suicide.

The control arm issue is in a whole other league...

Not making a good header is one thing. Selling control arms that are not designed right is absolute lunacy. Killing your customers is NOT cool. This, more than anything, is what leads me to this... active attack on a company. He should be out of business. In my opinion.

That's just the way I am. If you can't do it right, don't do it at all. And those arms are so, so wrong.

I don't think they're a good deal either.

$300.

They don't weigh any less than stock.

They're weaker than stock.

They fracture, instead of bend.

Why are they on the market? There is no reason for their existence.

You don't see FS making parts like this. Nobody else is. Again, that's particular to FC. If they would make a part that is not only ineffective, but could actually KILL you... why would any customer feel comfortable buying anything from them?

Again leads into their reputation.

And you can't compare FC to Ford. Yeah, the Focus had a couple recalls. How many parts are on the car? 10,000? If FC built the Focus, you'd expect 20,000 recalls, not 10.

Nobody who races has broken a Ford arm, that I am aware of. They bend when you HIT something, but they don't even break. I hope you can see the difference there. Gary did not hit a wall, he hit curbing. Curbing that 100's of people with Ford arms drive over all the time.

Why is FC still selling them? Why didn't they recall them, or at least take them off the market? Why?

Because they don't care about their customers. Anything to make a buck. He's got 12 more to sell, better move them!

I throw out about 5% of my shims, because I didnt' cut them right. Pretty simple part, not much to it, the defects wouldn't affect function at all. They just didn't stand up to my high standards.

Why doesn't FC throw out those arms becuase they could KILL their customers?

5x as much to build better arms? No, I don't think so. Griggs light duty arms, similar in design, but with much more attention to detail (selection of material, processes):

$440

Then they have heavy duty arms for racing, $700:

<a href='http://www.griggsracing.com/ART/MFA4000x.jpg'>

How many parts has FS even had to recall?

Just a bunch of random thoughts here.

*Sits back and grab popcorn*

Go Rob Go :D

p-51, those arms are just buttery looking...

not to bash FC, or anything, but I agree with Rob.. there are far too many companies that are just out there to sell things. It's like all these speed shops out there. It doesn't take knowledge or skill to be successful in this business. People's ignorance and slavery to fashion will sell for you... and I spend far too much time as a consumer trying to find competent shops and manufacturers. And that's sad considering all the 'experts' out there.

People say that they do the best they can considering they have no engineering budget..and that's just the worst excuse you can come up with. In the bike industry some of the best bikes to come out have come from 'cardboard engineering'. Can't figure out why the rear shock is too soft? take a piece of cardboard, and trace the suspension travel arch on it to see if the leverage ratio rises too quickly. Seems to work in other industries as well for most simple design tweeks.

Simple things like that and a bit of common sense goes a long way to make an affordable product that is both useful and reliable.

People speak of tip-in issues with the FC throttlebody all the time, and after how many revisions, it's still the same cam on there? is that really listening to customer suggestions? I'll give them credit for standing behind the exhausts and cracked welds, but you have to believe there's a better way than waiting for people to return their stuff to you... to me, as a customer, it would infuriate me. It gives the impression that they'll only fix parts if they stand to lose enough money from it. People can't return their throttlebodies because they hurt driveability, can they. And a refund short of covering shipping and handling doesn't count in my books.

I will always be willing to spend a little extra on a part that is properly engineered and accepted to work... I won't buy on company's claims alone, and with the hit-or-miss impression I get from lots of people out there, I just can't make myself cough up the money to even try FC components (even though I would love to).

tdot-zx3,Jun 18 2004, 04:56 AM Wrote:Did the revisions work differently?

Yes?

Then they are different.

Quote:my 2000 focus had a few recalls on it, they put in revised parts...
so according to your logic, it's a different car now?

The revised part was different it has nothing to do with the car. Putting in a 65mm tb doesnt make the focus a new car... Good logic! They replaced the part that didnt work properly with a different part! The part now worked better, but most importantly worked probably... And even though it was the same part, it worked different.. Therefore....

ITS DIFFERENT.

*claps*

Ive been on the phone them before too, when nazthug used to sell parts for them, and you had to be clear which one you wanted.... Since they had like 3 different ones that worked differently on there shelf....

I been around in this focus world just as long as you... :rolleyes:

technically no the revisions didn't work differently.

one question, are you refering to the fact that FC has a 2000, 2003+, SVT and Race 70mm TB?
or are you saying that the standard 2000 TB has been changed.


also, i never said putting a TB on the focus makes a different car.
although according to what you have said; design revisions to parts inside a part make the original part a different part.
therefore by that logic any time ANYTHING that has had revisions to one part inside the whole, the whole become and entirely new thing. this is according to what you have said.

and you know what, it doesn't even matter.

also, Nazthug never has worked for FC. you might be thinking of Nader who worked for FC for along time but Naz was nothing more than a friend of Naders and a shop regular at FC.

Hey I have a solution for you Shmee:

You want to prove to us that you want our business?
You want to prove to us that FC has quality s**t?

Rather than trying to offer the products at a jobber's rate...take that cash you would lose and slap it Focuscanada's way.

You will notice how alot of our attitudes will change, because right now you look like a mooch. Using our bandwidth and our members to try and sell your products while Steeda and Boss have stepped up to the plate and provided us with sponsorship money.

So until that time....really I don't think I want to hear how great you are and how great FC is.

Naz was allowed to sell parts under the table for them .. little do you know ...

And yes there was revisions to the 2000 tb

And like i said .. if the part works differently .. which it did .. nader said himself many times on focaljet ... it makes it a new and better part.

Making it ... *yawn* different from the first revisions.

:rolleyes:

well rob, that's exactly what it is.
they, like almost all shops that make parts for a market like ours do that to keep costs down. mainly because our cars are still so new, who knows if there will still be a tuning market in 5 years or 10 years.
don't forget you come from the mustang market and have had companies in that market for 20 and 30 years. that is a HUGE advantage when it comes to engineering, building and pricing parts for customers.

the arms you just showed me. how long have those been out?
do you think it would be fair to say that the timeless nature of the Mustang market allows companies to design higher quality parts because they know someone will always be fixing up an older stang and will need such parts. thus if they sell them spaced out over 5-20 years years they are not going to loose money.

you have a legitimate reason why YOU don't like FC. i cannot change your mind on them.
but
if you don't like FC for that what about FS? FS doesn't engineer their parts either.

the only difference i see between FC and FS is the way it all went down on FJ.
and FJ mod gets a hood from FC
the hood and packaging was damaged in shipping, his mom signed for it.
he went on the jet and started bashing FC BEFORE even calling up dave to talk about it. because that person was a mod and most of the people on FJ are sheep when it comes to following the mods or people like you rob who know alot more than the average person, they all jumped on the band wagon. people went on a FC witchhunt. now if it was an FS part, randy would have gotten a call and have been given the chance to fix it. but for some strang reason this didn't happen with FC. for whatever reason that mod decided it would serve him best to publicly bash a company who was not only a sponsor but a &quot;Premier Sponsor&quot; just like FS of the forums he was staff on.

that just doesn't make sence.

and to this day FC has carried this stigma.

yes FC did come on at the end of the thread and let a few people have it, but those people were also posting pics of the FC logo with a red circle and line through it like a no smoking sign calling for the &quot;banning of FC&quot;
worst of all, FC got ZERO support for the FJ staff who should have been there keeping s**t civil like they would have done for FS but didn't. what is a company supposed to do in a situation like this?
sit there and take it?



am i saying the arms are good, no, infact after this talk i'm going to talk to dave about them and suggest taking them off the market and recalling the ones that have already been sold.

that's cool, don't buy &quot;Boutique&quot; parts, but at the same time don't stop others from doing so. if they want them or want more power that is often the only option.
even so, there are thousands of of people out there that have FC or any boutique parts that have had no problems with them being designed and not engineered.
what is to be said about those.
i'm not trying to change your mind rob.
i'm trying to change your mind set.

going out and publicly bashing the biggest focus parts company isn't helping our community. other companies are always looking at these forums to see what the community is like. if they see people doing that they will seriously question becoming apart of that community.


but i have agreeed with you can we get onto something other than the conrtol arms. i'm going to talk to dave about it and hopefully get it handled the way you and apparently many others would like to see.


this is the problem i'm talking about.
you cannot expect a company to fix a propblem if the problem is never brought to them.
it's probably a dead solid lock that anywith with the FC arms who has broken them didn't call up FC to complain or warrenty them, they most likely went online and bitched about it and how they would never buy FC parts again.
and i can understand that.

how ever, there is a guy out west in Kelowna who has FC arms and to get the camber he wanted left like 5 threads on the joint inside the arm.
the threads stripped and the wheel went through his fender. he ended up buying a fender from me and now that i'm the FC dist he has plans for alot more FC parts even though his arms broke on him.
i'm even taking car of the arms for him.

if people were more like him then FC might not have the rep it gets today.

as for the headers, what can i say, it was work contracted out. the guys that did it sorta f**ked FC over at the same time. does that make it better or right? NO, but what can be done now?
FC has tried their best to get every defective header back in and replaced with new one without these issues.

and FS did have issues with wleds cracking, why do you think they don't sell the shorty header anymore?


and i didn't say 5x more to builtd better arms i said 5x more to build the best arms. but like i said before, they are from different markets so costs do not work the same.


this is the exact kind of stuff i was hoping for.
thank you rob.

You will find that going after him is probably not a good idea. So my suggestion is to speak to T-dot privately on not on board because you are just digging yourself a bigger hole.

not to bash FC, or anything, but I agree with Rob.. there are far too many companies that are just out there to sell things. It's like all these speed shops out there. It doesn't take knowledge or skill to be successful in this business. People's ignorance and slavery to fashion will sell for you... and I spend far too much time as a consumer trying to find competent shops and manufacturers. And that's sad considering all the 'experts' out there.

you are right.
but it's also the same ignorance that steers people away from buying parts that are of high quality, maybe not up to the standards of everyone, but much higher than the other options out there.

People say that they do the best they can considering they have no engineering budget..and that's just the worst excuse you can come up with. In the bike industry some of the best bikes to come out have come from 'cardboard engineering'. Can't figure out why the rear shock is too soft? take a piece of cardboard, and trace the suspension travel arch on it to see if the leverage ratio rises too quickly. Seems to work in other industries as well for most simple design tweeks.

you're right this is no excuse.
but there is a difference there.
having no budget for engineering and trying to keep final costs down by limiting R&amp;D time are 2 different things.
everything can be made better, EVERYTHING.
that's why i make most of the parts on my car myself. i take the time to test everything out myself so i am happy with it and feel it's something i can be proud of.
but simple design tweeks are not always as simple as they seem or end up being.


Simple things like that and a bit of common sense goes a long way to make an affordable product that is both useful and reliable.

true
but at the same time a part can only be tested for so long and in so many conditions.
it's hard to test most varriables in every condition let alone all of them.
once again it comes back to a cost issue.

People speak of tip-in issues with the FC throttlebody all the time, and after how many revisions, it's still the same cam on there? is that really listening to customer suggestions? I'll give them credit for standing behind the exhausts and cracked welds, but you have to believe there's a better way than waiting for people to return their stuff to you... to me, as a customer, it would infuriate me. It gives the impression that they'll only fix parts if they stand to lose enough money from it. People can't return their throttlebodies because they hurt driveability, can they. And a refund short of covering shipping and handling doesn't count in my books.

i have had the TB on my car for almost 3 years now with no problems.
i'm not saying that the problem doesn't exsist but if drivability was your concern why are you putting parts on the car that are designed for performance? why are you adding a part that really only shows gains and better drivability after you have a fair amount of work done?
to be fair, alot of those people with tip-in problems were putting the TB on as one of thier first few mods. that's not unlike sticking a 3&quot; exhaust on a stock focus.

I will always be willing to spend a little extra on a part that is properly engineered and accepted to work... I won't buy on company's claims alone, and with the hit-or-miss impression I get from lots of people out there, I just can't make myself cough up the money to even try FC components (even though I would love to).

Fair enough.
there is not much i can do in this case.
i have prices that have made alot of other people change their mind, if that doesn't work for you, what else can be done?
sooner or later you are going to either have to get around this stigma or stop modifying your car or be happy with other foci being alot faster than you.