[meford4u]

I have met the wife.

Smokin

[ZX3TUNING]

2001 ZTS,Mar 18 2005, 04:47 AM Wrote:

ZX3TUNING,Mar 18 2005, 09:21 AM Wrote:how is this style "unsafe" or "less safe" than any other style? and please, try and back up your reasons with facts and not opinions.
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I leave that up to people more knowledgable than you or I, the manufacturers. They have recomended wheel sizes for every tire size they make and there is obviously a reason for such a recomendation or it wouldn't exist at all.
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just for shits and giggles...

the rims on Ivans car measure 8.5"
here are the specs on a set of Falken GR-B FK451 street tire:
205/40ZR17 84‡ 28-183-780 7.5 7.0 - 8.0 23.5 8.4 7.2 10/32 50 1102 ®
the bold lettering are the "recommended" or "approved" not MIN AND MAX wheel widths for these tires. 1/2 of an inch is not a lot and if you call the guys at Kumho, Toyo or Falken they will say that it is safe to strech the tires that much outside the "limits" as you seem to consider them.

please show me a single tire manufactirer site that says the tires cannot be streched and i will consider you and your stance on safety correct.

here is the link to the falken specs: http://www.falkentire.com/tires_451_sizes.htm

and no offence but the phrase "I leave that up to people more knowledgable than you or I, the manufacturers" is not much different that some americans saying: "well, you know best George W Bush! i trust what you say and do!"
;) :D

trying, testing, experiencing and actually DOING something is far more proof than going by what you think is right or wrong based off a pair of numbers. if people thought like that there wouldn't be 8sec FWD cars or the V8 Focus as a couple of examples. think outside the box, and like dad stated, it was used and still is used amature racing. it has been used on street cars for over 20 years in Europe and NA without issues of bead seperation, blow-outs. i constantly see cars running this style at the AutoX, track days, drag races... no problems there.

your opion of this style being unsafe seems to be over shadowed by your complete and utter distaste for the style. just how it is coming off.

[2001 ZTS]

Much like blind acceptance of anything "Euro" being automatically cool by default.

Answer me this: if so and so crashed and died for whatever reason be it tires or not would the "estate" have a snowballs chance in hell even in a court of a country where it is a legal requirement to imprint on coffee cups: "Attention! Coffee may be hot" have a sucessful conclusion?

A million lawyers could argue for a million years and what it would always come back to was: WTF was DumbAss thinking?

Truth be told anyone here considering doing this mod. or thinks it is rad, has neither has the skill, ability or vehicle to take advantage of whatever advantage may or not exist (in the past) for doing it.

By default they are ghey posseur mods like blue LED window washer nozzles.

Choose the time, place and type of competition and I'll bring my wife's automatic Focus Sedan to any venue chosen and I'll run against that show car or anyone with similar.

I buy appearance mods/bling myself (plenty) but I never make my car less drivable in doing so.

"Dad" has already explained it very well that the "style" we see in the original pictures is not necessary and is taking what may have been a good idea 20 years ago a bit too far. I tend to believe him above yourself.

It might look "cool" to some but stupid to "many".

Maybe I should break out my "Safari Suit" and "Fondue Set" and be cool too?

[french_connection]

I realy like safari suit and fondue set. :P

[2001 ZTS]

french_connection,Mar 19 2005, 05:36 AM Wrote:I realy like safari suit and fondue set.  :P
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Moi Aussi!!!!!!!

BTW, the only reasom I'm in this useless thread is the hope of seeing blonde nude chicks..................

[ZX3TUNING]

never mind...
you're just goofing around

[2001 ZTS]

ZX3TUNING,Mar 19 2005, 05:47 AM Wrote:never mind...
you're just goofing around
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You wish.

[ZX3TUNING]

i could repost the reply i originally posted but there is no point, even if you were being serious it wouldn't make any difference... facts doesn't seem to matter to you! ;) :P

[tdot-zx3]

ANTHONYD,Mar 18 2005, 01:55 PM Wrote:Does the size of the area of tire making contact with the road play an important part in oversteer?

When your talking about tires and asking a question like that its difficult to answer because your dealing with whatever coefficient of friction a tire has... Which is going to change from car to car. Temperature, Slip, Pressure, Loading and obviously factors generated by size, width and surface area driving on.

Temperature wise, what your asking could happen if.... The rwd car was driving fast down a straight away say, and the rear tires were working hard while the front ones had little stress on them. The rear tires would stay heated, while the fronts would be cooler. If a turn came and instead of breaking you lifted from throttle, the front tires would be cooler until warmed from the turn, and *should* understeer until doing so. If at another turn you had to braked hard first, the front tires would heat up, allowing them to have better traction pulling the car through the turn. Basically, tires are always going to grip more as they heat up, if this setup with stretched tires effects heat in any way then possibly it could.

Slip is the relationship between the slipping of the tire and the coefficient of friction... When you brake, turn, accelerate, your tires are always slipping here and there. An extreme would be like, slamming on the brakes and you just keep sliding. Anyways ... maximum traction comes at somewhere around 5degrees of slip, thats all thats really important to know. If tires are mixmatched front and back, installed differently or whatever the changes in degrees of tire slip can affect and even cause oversteer/understeer.

Bare with me its not the most technical explination... But it is almost 3am. Ive read some great books on tire subjects and the likes... someone please correct me if my brain has mixed something up but that should be right and give you a little insight to your question.

[ANTHONYD]

I think this is the most informative thread we've had on here in a while.

Jay, I'm sure trying and testing is a wonderful way to learn things. I learned that 6 hashoil joints and 12 bottletokes in an hour can make you puke.

:P


Doesn't make it right though.

[DD1]

I liek boobies and beer :lol:

and as for DAD he knows his sh!t aboot cars and old school it jsut bugs him I am faster in a straight line and he is always waiting fo rthe corners :) its actually fun to drive around with him B)

[ANTHONYD]

DD1,Mar 19 2005, 10:01 AM Wrote:I liek boobies and beer  :lol:

and as for DAD he knows his sh!t aboot cars and old school it jsut bugs him I am faster in a straight line and he is always waiting fo rthe corners :) its actually fun to drive around with him B)
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Repost.

[DD1]

now now I am not that bad and I repost stuff that was already on FJ :lol: :P :lol:

[ANTHONYD]

DD1,Mar 19 2005, 10:11 AM Wrote:now now I am not that bad and I repost stuff that was already on FJ :lol:  :P  :lol:
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Repost.

[naz]

i didn't read the whole thread (this one or the FJ one) but in the FJ thread the owner of the car said straight up.. i don't think this is safe for track use or hard driving, i have it on just for looks.

at least he knows that its just a MaDD TitE mod and not something actually useful

[dad]

tdot-zx3,Mar 19 2005, 02: Wrote:

ANTHONYD,Mar 18 2005, 01:55 PM Wrote:Does the size of the area of tire making contact with the road play an important part in oversteer?

When your talking about tires and asking a question like that its difficult to answer because your dealing with whatever coefficient of friction a tire has... Which is going to change from car to car. Temperature, Slip, Pressure, Loading and obviously factors generated by size, width and surface area driving on.

Temperature wise, what your asking could happen if.... The rwd car was driving fast down a straight away say, and the rear tires were working hard while the front ones had little stress on them. The rear tires would stay heated, while the fronts would be cooler. If a turn came and instead of breaking you lifted from throttle, the front tires would be cooler until warmed from the turn, and *should* understeer until doing so. If at another turn you had to braked hard first, the front tires would heat up, allowing them to have better traction pulling the car through the turn. Basically, tires are always going to grip more as they heat up, if this setup with stretched tires effects heat in any way then possibly it could.

Slip is the relationship between the slipping of the tire and the coefficient of friction... When you brake, turn, accelerate, your tires are always slipping here and there. An extreme would be like, slamming on the brakes and you just keep sliding. Anyways ... maximum traction comes at somewhere around 5degrees of slip, thats all thats really important to know. If tires are mixmatched front and back, installed differently or whatever the changes in degrees of tire slip can affect and even cause oversteer/understeer.

Bare with me its not the most technical explination... But it is almost 3am. Ive read some great books on tire subjects and the likes... someone please correct me if my brain has mixed something up but that should be right and give you a little insight to your question.
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Dan...This line of tech is kinda one step up from the tire streching issue...The basis of this tech when expanded upon is really quite correct based on any of the reading I have done and experiences I have had....Having said all that , and if someone could simplifie what your saying, slip factors are no doubt the biggest consideration for tire selection....But what you got to remember is even if you were to take a tire that had particularly good test results with respect to slip (and other factors) you could vastly change it's caracteristics by stretching the side wall slightly .....That is not to say the end result makes for a better or worse handling situation ,it will however change how the tire responds to heat,slip,road surface etc......And that was why we did it, because it offered us a way to manipulate handling charateristics cheaply. So all that relavent tech aside you can still completely change how any tire responds under certain cercumstances by how ,or what ,rim it is placed on...
To much the same thinking these thought lines are used all the time when manipulating tire pressure itself....change the pressure = change of characteristics...simple really. Only real thing that matters with tire stretching as it relates to modern day cars and equipment is that it is simply not nesessary....I can get better results by adjusting a sway bar or dialing in a set of coilovers....options that were only available to a very select few when stetching was used as a "tool"...
I guess the point I am trying to make is to not "overthink" what stretching was about then and now....then = usefull....now = suido bling...

[2001 ZTS]

dad,Mar 20 2005, 01:41 AM Wrote:......... Only real thing that matters with tire stretching as it relates to modern day cars and equipment is that it is simply not nesessary....I can get better results by adjusting a sway bar or dialing in a set of coilovers....options that were only available to a very select few when stetching was used as a "tool"...
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What bugs me is 99.9999999999999% of people who would: do it, consider it or mearly think it is "cool" would get much better performance out of any wheel/tire combo, including stock by merely checking their tire pressure more frequently.

Everyone here ask yourselve's when you last checked your tire pressure, fluids?

I'm anal about it and no word of a lie: I "circle check" everytime I plan on going near a car.

[dad]

^^^^^^^^

hehehehehe.....this morning...

[2001 ZTS]

dad,Mar 20 2005, 02:01 AM Wrote:^^^^^^^^

hehehehehe.....this morning...
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It was mandatory in the military and something I did anyway from my motorcycle days, you kind of have to when you only have two wheels. ;)

[dad]

It may be hard for some of you to beleive but I can feel a drop in pressure.....prolly a sign that I drive that stupid little car to hard.....but I can tell...something you learn real quick once you have raced .....anything

edit.....it was the left front